ON THE VALUE OF THE FREE MARKET: We are following a mixed economy where the free market plays a role. In the context of a global setting, we cannot have a system outside of that. The question is you how you use resources to address the plight of people, within that context.

ON INTIMIDATION IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR STRIKE: The intimidation is totally wrong. It is to be condemned. Particularly in a democratic country, it is important for the country to appreciate and to support the concerns that poor workers are advancing. But if we act against the sick, it does not help the workers. It does not help to show us as a responsible nation. We must respect the right of workers to strike. But the way in which we exercise that right is important. Workers must not appear to be uncontrollable and undisciplined. It undermines public sympathy for their cause.

ON YOUR ROLE IN DEFENDING DEMOCRACY: I see my role in defending democracy as part of what I have always done. I am a politician. I want to ensure that politics is conducted responsibly. I also want to promote the right policies. Hence I belong to the ANC. It has the policies and programmes that will deepen our democracy. My work is to be part of that as a citizen and in whatever role, as a leader, I may be asked to play. Also as a Christian and as a man from a rural village. All of us should do it – not only in organised formations but even as individuals.

ON NON-RACIALISM AFTER 300 YEARS OF COLONIALISM AND APARTHEID: We must be committed to undoing the damage done over 300 years. In our formations and as individuals. The question of race and ethnicity is very difficult. Not only in South Africa but world-wide. Society has to be conscious of the need to fight divisions. We have to be ready to make it work. It’s very easy to use tribalism, ethnicity, etc. Politicians can use it especially. It was used particularly in South Africa. Here it was sharper and became the centre of world attention.

But we have accepted our diversity. This is a strength and not a weakness. To harmonise is the role of all of us. There is consensus on this nationally. But everywhere there is a sickness that needs conscious working on. If you take South Africa and remove all the blacks, you will see problems of ethnicity among whites. There will be problems between Afrikaners and English, between Chinese and Jews. If you remove all the whites, you will see problems between Zulus, Venda, Xhosa, etc. We are built by God to be different. We need to learn that colour is not the issue. If you think that colour is the issue, then you are the problem.

Even if we could cut it down to the Zulus alone, there would be divisions among them – between those from the north, those from the south. In the Eastern Cape, among the Xhosas, there would be tensions between Port Elizabeth and East London.

It needs conscious mature leadership at all times. We have to make people believe that we are one. We have to respect each other. We have to respect both minorities and majorities. The task is to make the constitution work. Politicians ought not to use those labels.

We have defeated racism. How to maintain that is now the question.

ON THE ROLE OF THE STATE IN DEVELOPING THE ECONOMY: You surely don’t want me to debate ANC issues that will arise in the policy conference! We have always felt that there should be a mixed economy. Read the Freedom Charter. We also believe that the role of the private sector is not to look after the interests of citizens in general but to make money, to make profit, and grow. The state must look after citizens. But it does not have money. So we need a mixed economy. There is debate on the extent and degree. One view is that we need to release some state assets to the private sector. The other view is that you need more in the state so that it can intervene more.

We should not address the issue in a bureaucratic way. Parastatals must operate as if they were in the private sector.

ON POSSIBLE TEMPTATIONS TO TAMPER WITH THE CONSTITUTION: There is always the temptation of power. Hence the need for regular elections to check if people are still happy with policies. If you don’t do that, it creates problems. If you don’t have terms, people get used to that. The prime minister in the United Kingdom may be doing well. But after a while the people have had enough. Change is important for all countries.

ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION: Affirmative action was a necessary intervention. Our economy was racially structured over decades. We could not move faster without that policy. But changes are difficult to get perfect. We have to assess if the policy is being properly applied. We have to look at criticisms. Do the critics understand why it was developed? If they do, how do they propose to fix it? We must have in place an instrument to evaluate it. It cannot go on for ever, but till you have achieved the desired objective – the deracialisation of the economy. Could we set a date for ending it or for phasing it out? We have to look at it. It is also part of the challenge of poverty. The economy is growing. South Africa is doing well. But the gap is widening. Poverty is escalating.

Historically our economy was structured in a certain way. Lots of people are still disadvantaged. Government must keep looking at it. So must the private sector. So must the nation as a whole. We should discuss it, get consensus on it.

I am not sure how long it took Afrikaners to feel that they were adequately participating in the economy. Things developed to a point. There are still Afrikaners who feel that affirmative action did not solve the problem of poor whites.

ON THE ANC SUCCESSION STRUGGLE: I am not sure if there has been any serious breaking of the tradition within the ANC. There are comrades who have been asked, not many, and who have said ‘I will decide if I am willing to be nominated’ or who have said, ‘I will stand if asked’. No one is campaigning. No one in the ANC can campaign. The branches decide whether a comrade can be elected to a particular position. The media have been campaigning for particular people and saying there is a campaign going on. Some people have said, ‘I’m being lobbied’. That’s as far as they have gone.

The media began the focus. Six years ago, the media started speculating about me. But I have not ever said I want to be president. They have commented on whether I am presidential material!

There is a process within the ANC in which the branches will decide on nominations. Some don’t accept, others do. That is also part of democracy. It might look as if people are campaigning but there is no room for this. In fact, there is no crisis on this issue in the ANC. The media write as if there were. As if we were pulling each other’s hair. At the right time, ANC delegates will decide.

ON TWO CENTRES OF POWER: I don’t think you need two centres of power. It’s not good. We are human beings. A lot would depend on which is the stronger centre. It could create one trying to pull harder than the other. So we have not had them in the past. One centre is the critical thing. Because the organisation is more important than the individual. I don’t think the ANC would fail to elect leaders who can implement and put forward the right policies.

So we favour one centre. We don’t need to create another centre. The ANC has not taken a decision on this. It was discussed in Mafikeng. Maybe we should have given further thought to it. We cannot leave it undecided.

ON RETAINING FLOOR-CROSSING LEGISLATION: Floor crossing is now in the constitution. I was still deputy president when the matter was raised. There was discussion between the old Democratic Party and National Party, they wanted to come together. They felt the constitutional bar was a problem. I was approached as deputy president and asked what could be done. Personally, I had my own views. We have a democracy with very many parties. I could see the small parties would disappear. I tried to warn them against this. We tried to resist it, but they saw a need to put the new party together. The change was then effected. What I worried about started to happen. And the marriage between the National Party and the Democratic Alliance did not last. It became a problem. Every time there is a window period, there is a panic within the parties. New parties also emerge. It is clear that there is a general view, now even among the opposition, that this is not good. It will be discussed in the policy conference. I don’t think you need it. It undermines the small parties. But it is for the policy conference to decide. However, it has now been included in the constitution and so we would have to amend the constitution.

ON HIS LOYALTY PLEDGE TO MBEKI SIX YEARS AGO IN 2001: President Mbeki was going for his next term. We as the ANC had decided that Mbeki would be our president and hence South Africa’s president. In news stories, it was speculated that Zuma might stand. But I thought Mbeki should be in both jobs. So I provided a clarification.

ON THE SECRET SYSTEM OF ELECTION WITHIN THE ANC FOR SENIOR OFFICE-BEARERS: Secret voting is not bizarre. In general elections, the vote is secret. Members of the ANC also vote in secret. So as not to intimidate people. Open voting by hand could be intimidatory, so we vote in secret and we are proud of it.

ON WHETHER THE EXERCISE OF GUARANTEED RIGHTS COULD UNDERMINE POLITICAL STABILITY: I’m not saying that people should keep quiet. But responsible citizens and entities should be able to gauge whether they are doing something that will create instability. That is irresponsible. An abuse of constitutional rights. Each citizen must know what is beyond the boundaries of responsibility. But you cannot silence people by saying they will create instability. At the same time, political stability is also very important. Citizens must feel they can be confident that a revolution is not going to happen tomorrow.

ON THE CRISIS OF DELIVERY, AND A SEEMING DETERIORATION AT CHRIS HANI BARAGWANATH HOSPITAL SINCE 1994: The delivery question is a problem facing many governments. I don’t think we have said we have succeeded in mastering this. In some places, residents have expressed concern. We have to work on it all the time. There’s been ongoing difficulty in hospitals. It’s a challenge we always face. Some people don’t know enough of what is happening at the coal face. In some places, action is being taken. But the government needs to be made aware all the time. We must improve ways of monitoring and then we can act.

I cannot defend it if conditions have deteriorated. The ideal is to make public institutions as efficient as the private ones. But the government is the government. Say there are two loaves of bread in a shop. One is government and one is private. Which would you buy? You would leave the government one. It’s always the bureaucracy in government which can impede action. Criticism is also important. We must enable citizens to lodge their complaints. We must not have a government bureaucracy suppressing them. Regarding Bara, we must improve it.

ON FOREIGN POLICY AND WHETHER THIS SOMETIMES ABROGATES OUR COMMITMENT TO HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY: This is a question of how people judge things. As South Africa, not just as the ANC, we need to be as vocal about human rights as we are in our own community. It is a sickness everywhere. I was in Brussels when the Nigerian election was broadly condemned. Everybody, including Obasanjo, was critical of Nigeria. There is a general problem of double standards.

Regarding Zimbabwe, I was sent by Mbeki to see Mugabe before the Commonwealth Conference in New Zealand. I sat with Mugabe. He laughed. The problem is that there is a lot of hypocrisy. Mugabe said: Bush can’t tell me about elections. He had to be endorsed by the judiciary. Both Bush and Blair condemn me and you may criticise some shortcomings, but they embrace Musharraf in Pakistan who seized power in a coup. He asked me to explain why these differences in treatment arose and I could not. But I accept that there is a need to be consistent because we believe in human rights. It would not help Nigeria if we did not object. I take your criticism seriously.